TIME OUT!

Justonekid - Thanks for the history lesson...it'll help free my mind of all the Polish stereotypes I grew up hearing as a kid.

But you know what, Bush could've named ANY of the countries in the "Coalition of the Willing" and I still would've chuckled. The fact that he was trying to show how America has support in this "war" is funny in and of itself. In fact, the Coalition itself is comical...Afghanastan is in it for goodness sake!

Let's just hope Bush continues to smirk, flub and flounder during the next 2 debates ;-)

Have a good weekend y'all!

:)

Totally...it's always great to have that coversation with other politically/historically engaged peeps, so let's chat sometime. When it comes to Israel it's inevitable that someone either gets angry or feelings hurt, so sometimes it's acutally better to do that off of message boards...these places can sometimes get a bit catty ;-P

Just one Kid I don't want to get into an Arab Israeli conflict debate with you on the boards, as you are correct it will cause a snooze fest. I am more than willing to discuss offline with you.

cantona - I think you misunderstood the end of my post and trust me, I certainly wasn't asserting that you were poking fun at the Polish in any way. I do seriously think you failed to read between the lines in regards to my comments on their military stature. I never said Poland's military was of "super-power" status by any stretch. I said they are and were "a force to be reckoned with" even under overpowering odds. They had that rare ability to stare massive armies and invading forces in the eye (or down the barrel of a tank) and say bring it on, sometimes with no weapons but their fists and ingenuity. I'm well aware of their history of being invaded and dissected up by their neighbors and that's partly why I feel the US should be giving them a little more props in the pocketbook, like we do to Israel, for being brave enough to stick it out when it's obviously not the most popular thing to do these days.
Your comments on Israel are more then valid, but basically as a nation we've been put in the frame of mind where we're supposed to scold Spain for pulling out of Iraq (partially because of the Madrid train bombing and their own internal problems with Muslim extremists), but it's okay for Israel to sit it out on the sidelines, because it would make it tougher for Israel and our forces if they participated? If that's not contradictory, I don't know what is. If our money and weapons can be used to kill Palestinians, which doesn't exactly excite Israel's Arab neighbors as it is, why be cautious with Iraq? If there's going to be any end to these types of conflicts you have to be cautious sure, but when our current administration uses the fact that President Hussein was a threat to Israel as a reason for his removal then why do we continue to do dirty work for nation's who don't return the favor? More importantly nation's who we give so much monetary and political aid to. It's quite ridiculous and illogical and I doubt that my fingers or yours could truly do the Israel debate justice without snoozing this board to death.
I do know we agree on one thing. We need a massive change of direction in leadership in this nation and last night seemed to be the first step in the right direction towards that. It's one thing to be a flip-flopper and another thing to say "I'm certain" and be utterly wrong and unchanging in your ways. Kerry or Bust!

Just One Kid my comment was not directed as offence towards Poland or Polish people, it was a direct response to Bush's so called coalition.

Thanks for the history lesson, but in reality Poland has not been a major military force in a very long time. From 1794-1918 Poland was occupied by either Prussia (later to become part of a unified Germany), Russia and Austria. During this time the Polish people suffered pretty severe oppression, and there was little to no Polish Military. Poland once again became an Independent country after WW 1 in the form of Polish Republic 1918-1939, bringing us to Nazi Invasion and the start of WW 2. You are absolutely correct that an exiled Polish army fought bravely on the side of Allies in fact 500,000 of them.

Your post brings us up to date with what happened after WW 2 with Eastern Bloc, Communist rule and the rise of Solidarity Movt.

I think however your comment of Israel not sending troops to Iraq needs to be discussed. During the first invasion of Iraq in 1990, Sadaam was firing scud missiles at Tel Aviv, Israel-a declaration of war against a country. Israel did not respond (and that is not because they are unable to show military aggression-which a whole other discussion)reason being that there was a coalition of Arab Countries fighting with West against Sadaam and if Israel would have responded-the coalition would have broken up. America basically ordered Isreal to sit it out. Fast forward to the present situation again it would make US job even harder if Israel was using it's army to help occupy Iraq. Plus if Israeli bases were being used to help US effort it would also cause problems with Jordan and other pro West Arab countries (as planes would have to fly over their soveriegn airspace). So there is a reason why they haven't joined the coalition. One last thing, in 1982 Israel sent planes and destroyed the nuclear reactor that Iraq was building and pushed back their nuclear program 15 years.

The Middle East is a very complicated region, which is even more of a reason that we need a plan and a understanding of what we have gotten ourselves into. It is not a pretty situation and will get a lot worse before it gets any better. That is why all jokes aside we need a real coalition.

Kerry wiped him clean last night in the first debate! I was so incredibly pumped. I've never been super impressed with Kerry, but he definitely did a great job of clearing up his stance on just about everything while being respectful of the President and actually coming out smelling like roses. Regardless of what the spin doctors were saying afterwards, President Bush has his work cut out for him now.
I wouldn't say I was offended by Kerry omitting Poland from his list as I'm sure it's an honest mistake. I can't believe that a President that has trouble remembering the names of foreign leaders would point that out, but there is a point to all of this that runs below the radar in this time of terror. It's obvious that Germany probably would not have been defeated as quickly in WWII had the Polish army not remained to fight even when there was no country for them to call their own. Let's not forget that Hitler didn't just want to exterminate the Jewish race, but he was dead set on extinguishing the Polish race. Where do you think all of those un-funny Polish jokes started? The sad part is that for all their effort and freedom fighting, the US threw these proud and humble people to the lions after being crucial allies. It was "thank you for your help, you're now Russia's property." Welcome communism. Poland was also the driving force in initiating the fall of Communism in the 80's. Lech Walesa's Solidarity movement was extremely visionary and ballsy yet the US media still credits Ronald Reagan with the fall of communism because he said "Mr. Gorbachev, take down that wall." Sorry Ronnie, all due respect...but you came in on the *** end of it. Give credit, where credit is due.
So, I'm honestly quite shocked that Poland is even helping us now considering allies like Israel who get utterly ridiculous amounts of monetary aid from this country have not sent one soldier to assist in Iraq and what is Poland getting out of all of this? As for their military might do a little homework and you'll find that the Polish Aces (air force pilots) in WWII were the true stars of the air over England. Their creativity and ingenuity helped bring down more German planes than any air division in the War. In modern days, let's not forget how we found out that Poland was our ally in Iraq in the first place. Journalists embedded with the US Marine's storming into Iraq printed photos that they were not supposed to of the Polish GROM unit LEAVING Baghdad. That's right, leaving. Their special unit force beat our own Marines to Baghdad, a place where in the early stages of the war we never thought we'd see our troops. So, I'd say the Polish were and continue to be the most slept on military force and are a force to be reckoned with.
Sorry for the history lesson, but Polish history and the oppression of Polish people in general is glossed over too frequently and chuckled about.

No doubt!

Me & my son were cracking up over that one. How could he forget the mighty Polish army?????

Love or hate the candidates, this is one helluva entertaining campaign season.

Can't wait for the next debate!

How could Kerry have forgotten Poland when talking about our strong coalition in Iraq? Not putting down Poland or anything but when was the last time they were a military force to be reckoned with?

Bush once again exposed himself as a man with no plan. At last Kerry "stepped up to the plate" let's hope he keeps moving forward.